How to punish war crimes
Russian officials constantly reiterate that the Russian army only carries out targeted strikes against military targets in Ukraine and does not affect civilian infrastructure. But the destroyed residential buildings, hospitals, schools, and power grids certainly suggest otherwise. The most serious war crimes for the courts will, of course, be cases of mass murder of civilians. For example, in Bucha, which has become a sinister symbol of gratuitous cruelty and even sadism on the part of Russians. Or the missile attacks on the largest children's hospital, Okhmadet, in Kyiv.
On responsibility for aggression, justice for victims and lessons for the future Farida Kubangaleeva they say political scientist and human rights activist Mikhail Savva, which documents war crimes in Ukraine, and lawyer Ilya Shablinsky.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
We know that the International Criminal Court in The Hague has issued arrest warrants for literally several people involved in war crimes in Ukraine. This is, in fact, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Russia's Children's Ombudsman Maria Lvova-Belova, this Chief of the Russian General Staff Valery Gerasimov and former Defense Minister Sergei ShoiguLike many people observing this process without being professional lawyers or human rights activists, I think I have a legitimate question: why have so few people been held accountable at least to this degree by the International Criminal Court? And do you understand the rationale behind this choice?
MICHAEL SAVVA
There are several more of these people. Besides the four you named, there is also the commander of the Black Sea Fleet and the commander of Russia's long-range aviation. They received ICC warrants for the targeted shelling of Ukraine's civilian infrastructure in the winter of 2023. That's when the power grid was destroyed. In 2024, Russian authorities are attempting to do the same again.
Why these people in particular? It's important to understand that the International Criminal Court has a very high standard of proof. For this court to issue a warrant, the crime must already be proven very convincingly. There was a case where a former Vice President of the Congo This court examined 5000 witnesses. The judges do not allow themselves to make any decisions that could create even the slightest doubt. These six essentially admitted to having committed war crimes. They violated Article 8 of the Rome Statute, which is a kind of criminal code for the International Criminal Court.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Indeed, there is a wealth of evidence regarding two charges. The charge is of taking minor Ukrainian citizens and children outside of Ukraine, separating them into families, and sending them to Russian regions. This is something that has been openly discussed. This was also discussed. Lvova-Belova, I spoke about this too PutinAnd as for the shelling of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, both Shoigu and Gerasimov spoke about it directly. The suspects themselves spoke about it in considerable detail. And Putin himself bragged that blows are being struck regarding power plants. I think the ICC prosecutor assumed this, and, of course, the list of crimes for which new suspects could be brought in is much longer.
MICHAEL SAVVA
The International Criminal Court's list will continue to grow. Several more cases are already under consideration. Furthermore, the International Criminal Court is not the only international organization that will try war criminals of this war. The ICC cannot, for example, prosecute those accused of the principal crime—the crime of aggression—for initiating this aggressive war and attacking a neighboring country. A special international tribunal would need to be created for this.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
And it doesn't necessarily have to be located in G.aagis it?
MICHAEL SAVVA
Of course not. It could be located anywhere – in one country, or in several countries. It will depend on the format it will be created in. For now, we only know the most general plans. For example, there are special resolution The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, which states that an international tribunal is necessary, but without providing further details, has completed the development of a concept document in Ukraine. This is a plan for what we want to do to hold those responsible for crimes of military aggression accountable. It states that an international tribunal must be established and describes some of its specific parameters.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
НHow important is it for Ukrainians? - and for you personally, so that the international tribunal have worked specifically in Ukraine?
MICHAEL SAVVA
Such a tribunal will definitely operate in Ukraine, at least partially. Investigators will work there. I don't know where the judges will work; they don't necessarily have to be in Ukraine. For us, something fundamentally different is at stake. I've been documenting war crimes since March 3, 2022. I did this while in the combat zone in the occupied part of the Kyiv region. I saw people being killed before my eyes. I realized that I have a dream and a purpose for the rest of my life. I will work to ensure that the people who did this, those who gave them orders, and everyone else involved are put to prison and serve as an example to other scoundrels.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
At the same time, I remain hopeful—I must remain hopeful—that those involved in unleashing this war of aggression, this terrible, bloody war, will be held accountable in Russia as well. Specifically, for unleashing the war—that is, for something for which the International Criminal Court cannot hold them accountable. The prospects for this are unclear. But I agree with those who say we must be prepared for this. A legal basis is needed. The Russian Criminal Code contains specific articles—Article 353.Planning, preparation, and initiation of an aggressive war", 354th"Public calls for waging a war of aggression" – remember the Russian propagandists. These are the articles under which I would like to see those who are actually guilty of murdering hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and my fellow citizens prosecuted. This is the most heinous crime.
The International Criminal Court and the International Tribunal are bodies that are brought in when national justice systems are unable or unwilling to function: RwandaFor example, the new authorities did not want the court to operate on their territory, so they appealed to the International Criminal Court. Russia has a number of constitutional restrictions, including a ban on extraditing Russian citizens to other states. However, it remains possible that, under a different political regime, those who gave orders to commit war crimes and those who carried them out could be convicted and imprisoned.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
А At what stage does responsibility for committing war crimes begin? Еsli Commander of the Black Sea Fleet gives away order about thatto launch missiles, it is clear that he is guilty. A the one who just presses the button and the rocket flies into children's hospital «Оhmadet», he guilty? ABOUTn after all just carries out orders.
MICHAEL SAVVA
And yet, he is guilty. There is the concept of a "criminal order," and that's all quite described in detailThis is what they teach in good military units. Anyone who presses the button, knowing where it's going, must clearly understand that they're carrying out a criminal order. There are even more complex situations: subordinates commit crimes, and their superiors don't know about it. But they're also guilty, because there's what's called the customary law of war. It's codified by the International Committee of the Red Cross, and there's an article there that says that if subordinates commit war crimes, and Chief could know about it – he simply could – he is guilty and subject to responsibility. That is, the circle of culprits is much wider than people in the Kremlin currently believe.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
But eThere is a common belief that Russian military personnel who committed various war crimes, it combatants, soldiers who carry out the orders of officers. And they don't carry responsibility for what they do.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
This is something the court should sort out. Generally speaking, there really is a concept of a criminal order, and in international law there is a concept of the obviousness of a criminal order. That is, it should be a situation where the person executing the order... sees that he is being urged to do the obvious, to take illegal actions: finish off the wounded, shoot prisoners, shoot civilians. It's perfectly obvious that this order is illegal. In these cases, the perpetrators themselves may be held accountable. But yes, in general, they—the perpetrators in general, ordinary rank-and-file soldiers—will have ample grounds to argue that they didn't make the decision; they attacked a populated area, following orders. But in Bucha's case – the savagery there, as far as can be judged now, was carried out by privates, ordinary soldiers. Perhaps officers gave the order, perhaps not. But who forced them to shoot an entire family? The mayor of a small village, an entire family? Who forced them to tie the hands of dozens of civilians, men, and then kill them with a shot to the back of the head? There is also evidence of rape and murder. Yes, there is reason to believe that these crimes were committed by private soldiers, but the fact that they were privates should not absolve them of responsibility.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Ilya, you mentioned Russian propagandists, saying that they should also be held responsible for the release of those who should not, that many of these people consider themselves people at work: we let's go We go to work and say what we're told to do. How will this conflict be resolved? And how realistic is it to hold them accountable?
MICHAEL SAVVA
Well, I'd like to start by saying that this idea—"We go to work, we're enslaved people"—won't help them. Unlike war criminals, these people don't even have officially confirmed orders to say exactly what they say. What they say is their own creation. And the fact that they can actually go to jail for it is a fact—the process...Radio of a Thousand Hills"This is an event from the 1993 Rwandan genocide, when a local radio station called for the murder of Tutsis, and these people disguised themselves. They didn't refer to Tutsis by their ethnicity. They said, for example, that cockroaches should be killed. But the judges proved that they were referring specifically to members of a specific ethnic group, and these were specific calls for murder. These people received 25-year sentences. Some are already getting out as old men. Some were imprisoned much later because they were being sought, and for some, the search is still ongoing. Russian propagandists would do well to study the materials of this criminal case against "Radio of a Thousand Hills."
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Of course, those who glorified mass murder, aggression, sadism, and the destruction of cities must be held accountable. I remember Solovyov showing the ruins of Maryinka or Avdiivka and proclaiming that the same fate awaits Berlin. There are simply astonishing examples of unbridled, vicious propaganda. Of course, a change in the political regime must be a prerequisite for holding these propagandists of terror accountable. We all understand that. I believe that ultimately, these people should be dealt with by the Russian courts.
Now, judges, the entire judicial community, present a pitiful spectacle. This is perhaps the most shameful page in the history of the Russian state as a whole. Shameful, you understand! This means not only that Russian soldiers have found themselves in the role of conquerors and marauders, but that all state structures obediently carry out the dictator's will, each doing their part in the bloody and dirty work.
Yet, historical experience shows us that after a change in the political order, after fear disappears, the same people, acting more or less freely, begin to make different decisions. Let's remember that in the post-Stalin era, the justice system also changed. Perhaps not greatly, but it did change. In short, these propagandists should be prosecuted under Article 354, which deals with public calls for the introduction of this war, and the measure of responsibility should be determined for each one individually. Some of them behave prudently, deferring to experts and trying to avoid calls and judgments. But others behave aggressively, maliciously. Well, that means the responsibility will be different.
MICHAEL SAVVA
I agree with Ilya; it would be a very good idea for these people to be tried in Russian courts. But we don't know if that will happen. We don't know when it will happen, and we can't rely solely on that option—regime change in Russia. Therefore, these people must be tried now. And preparations for the trial are underway. I'm referring to the creation of a special international tribunal for the crime of aggression, which would examine a very broad range of crimes, from the instigators of this aggression to the propagandists we just mentioned. This is, after all, first and foremost the responsibility of an international judicial body. Justice cannot wait forever. We can't wait for the Russian masses to finally wake up and overthrow this regime, or for internal conflicts within the elite to reach their climax. And we won't wait for that.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Yes, I agree. If the International Criminal Court can do anything now—say, make a decision regarding a mandate, pass charges, or issue clear language—it should. Waiting for a change in the political regime would mean giving these people a time when they can feel relatively carefree. No, they must remember that they are committing horrific crimes, that their words and actions have resulted in enormous casualties, destroyed cities, and ruined lives. These people should remember and know this now.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
That is, according to the logic of the historical process, most likely, the trial will take place first Russian war criminals somewhere abroadм and only then I would even say, not in the event of the collapse of the Russian political regime, but in the event of Russia's defeat in the war of conquest against Ukraine a trial within Russia will be possible.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
It's more accurate to say "regime change." Russia's defeat most easily means the forced withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukrainian territory. That would already be a defeat. Unfortunately, the regime might still survive.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
It's just that many experts believe that only a military defeat for Russia on the battlefield will lead to the collapse of the political regime.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
I hope so too. Although there's the experience of Saddam Hussein, who remained in prison for another 13 years after his defeat. But, overall, it's a fair assumption. I think that, while a full-fledged trial is difficult to expect given Russia's non-cooperation with the International Criminal Court, at least charges should be filed.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Is it possible to try these war criminals, say these six people, even before they are caught?
MICHAEL SAVVA
No, that won't happen. The International Criminal Court doesn't try people who aren't in the courtroom. That's why warrants have been issued. They could take a long time to find, they might never be found, but at the International Criminal Court, there won't be a verdict until they're found. But I still want to clarify: the International Criminal Court isn't the only international judicial body. The current discussion is about creating a special international tribunal that would try people for the crime of aggression. And this special international tribunal could be created on different principles and, for example, stipulate in its statutes that it will try people in absentia, investigate the case, and issue a verdict before the criminal is brought into the courtroom. We don't yet know how this will work.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
If such a special international tribunal were to convict Russian criminals either in absentia or in person, why do you think it's so important to still try them in Russia? Does this have any symbolic or practical significance?
ILYA SHABLINSKY
In Russia, if they're convicted, they'll actually go to jail, you see. But if they're convicted in absentia, they'll just smirk and make fun of it. It will really only have symbolic value. I admit that a tribunal could be created, but the legal basis for it needs to be seriously considered. Because Yugoslavia Tribunal – there was a long title – was created on the recommendation of a 1993 Security Council decision. The Security Council voted unanimously. Russia strongly supported this decision at the time. But now, it's definitely impossible to create a tribunal on the recommendation of the Security Council. This means some other mechanism is needed.
MICHAEL SAVVA
Such a mechanism exists. Any such tribunal is an international treaty. Incidentally, the International Criminal Court is formally an international treaty, so such a tribunal could be created by signing an international treaty. But in our opinion—I'm referring to Ukrainian experts—its international character needs to be strengthened, for example, by a UN General Assembly resolution empowering the president, the head of the UN, to sign agreements with a wide range of countries on joining such a tribunal. This isn't a Security Council vote, where Russia has veto power, and it will certainly exercise that power. It's a majority decision in the UN General Assembly. This is also a fairly complex task, but it is still solvable.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
A majority can be mustered. This is precisely where the General Assembly has some hope.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Does it matter where war criminals are imprisoned? Here's Yulia Navalnaya in July of this year. wrote a post, in which she stated that she did not want them to sit in Gaaghe's in a warm cell with a TV, and she wants each of them to sit in the cell two by three meters, approximately in the same cell where Alexei was held, in which he was tortured. This really does have truth is lifeand: European prisons, let's say so, greenhouse, comfortable. ЛPeople can sit there without any problems inconveniences. At the same time, we are well aware that a classic Russian prison.
MICHAEL SAVVA
I was in a three-by-three cell. But there were two of us, I wasn't even alone. I can say that yes, it's uncomfortable, it's unpleasant, but the main problem isn't that. It's that you're deprived of your freedom, that you're behind bars, that you don't make decisions. And I'm a supporter of harsh but humane punishment. After these people are sentenced—and the sentences will likely be harsh, they've already earned life sentences—they should be provided with the conditions to live out the remaining years of their miserable lives normally, like human beings.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Many Ukrainians won't understand you. for these words.
MICHAEL SAVVA
Yes, but I'm a human rights activist, and I can't have a different perspective on what you asked. So I don't care who understands me or how. These are my convictions.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Let me remind you: Mikhail had a terrible experience. He truly endured a wide range of conditions within the Russian penitentiary system. Even transporting a defendant from prison to court in a special transport vehicle is torture. I only glanced inside. But Mikhail spent several hours there, more than once. And what about sitting in a cell in Krasnodar in the heat? I also only glanced inside. And Mikhail, as Brodsky said, "was a prison inmate." So his words carry more weight.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
But there is a real chance that they will, for example, be sent to prison. in Ukraine? Мmany Ukrainians would consider it also quite logical, natural and fair.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
The International Criminal Court decides which country the individuals convicted by it should be held in. It must be one of the countries that has signed the Rome Statute, and several dozen countries offer conditions for serving their sentences, the court determines.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Еif we talk about human rights and humane treatment of prisoners, how will it be monitored so that they are not tortured, so that they are not beaten?о This is exactly what the Russian Federal Penitentiary Service system does all the time.
MICHAEL SAVVA
This is guaranteed by the country where the trial is taking place. And if we're talking, for example, about the international tribunal that will be created, or about the International Criminal Court, which is already operating, it's clear that these people will be held in countries with robust systems of oversight to ensure the humane treatment of prisoners and defendants. That means there will be no torture. They are definitely protected against this. Although, no, they are not guaranteed against the curse of mass persecution.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
In The Hague itself, there's a special prison, I think, with about 80 inmates. There are video cameras everywhere. Constant monitoring is supposed to serve as one of the guarantees that no illegal measures will be applied to defendants or convicts. And then it depends on which country the convict ends up in. In Europe, there's strict control, in Russia, there's complete arbitrariness. Where such people end up isn't the most pressing issue right now.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
And in whose name will the accusations be brought? Will they be brought in the name of Ukraine, that is, the country that suffered from Russian aggression, or in the name of the international community?
MICHAEL SAVVA
On behalf of the international community. Ukraine has already issued sentences for war crimes against Russian occupiers. Some of them are being captured. Such trials are ongoing in Ukraine. But the most common charge is the murder of a civilian, that is, the murder of a non-combatant. But if we're talking about the crime of aggression, if we're talking about senior Russian officials who should be brought to trial, then the charges and sentence will undoubtedly be issued on behalf of the international community.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Yes, on behalf of the international community. When the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia was established, I recall the Russian representative even said that this was a completely new institution, with its help decisions would be made not on behalf of the victors against the losers, but on behalf of the international community. This is true, and it should be so.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Mikhail, tell us more about how war crimes are documented. Let's say a certain territory was under Russian occupation, then de-occupied. As I understand it, human rights activists go there and begin collecting information about what happened there.
MICHAEL SAVVA
My first documenting took place on March 3, 2022. It was in the occupied part of the Kyiv region. I observed from a distance of approximately 400 meters a Russian military convoy moving along the Zhytomyr highway toward Kyiv, with an infantry fighting vehicle in front. At that moment, two civilian cars—ordinary passenger cars—entered the highway from Bucha. They simply needed to cross the highway, which would take them to a neighboring village. From there, the road to Kyiv was clear, unoccupied by Russians. The infantry fighting vehicle simply sprayed them with cannon fire. It was a 30-millimeter cannon, several shots. After the convoy passed, we were able to photograph them from close range: three people were killed in each car, only their legs remained, their bodies torn apart by shells. We realized that each car was driven by a man and the passengers were women and a child. We found the license plates of these cars, photographed them, and thanks to this, we were able to identify one of the two drivers. He was a Kyiv resident, a volunteer who was simply evacuating people, rescuing them.
Literally a few hours later, the next Russian convoy pushed all of this into a field, into a ditch, crushed it, and no trace of this crime remained. War crimes must be documented as soon as possible, because in war, traces don't last long. They are quickly erased by the war itself. If we hadn't documented what happened, no one would even know where to look for these people. There wouldn't even be any material for genetic analysis.
But it also happens, as you say: after active hostilities have ceased, interviews are conducted with victims and witnesses. This is crucial, and should be done, among other things, by civil society organizations, because the authorities lack the resources. Believe me, for every Ukrainian investigator tasked with such cases, there are several thousand criminal cases involving missing persons. Investigators are simply unable to effectively process such a volume of human grief. Therefore, at the initial stage, when documentation is needed, we need public experts. This requires a secure database, like ours, and access for official law enforcement officials to this database.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
How many war crimes can we now say with certainty? Clearly, there are more than what's been recorded..
MICHAEL SAVVA
About 140 thousand.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Nightmare. Basically what kind these crime?
MICHAEL SAVVA
A fairly large group is shelling of civilian infrastructure. I recorded this almost every day in the Kyiv region in March 2022. My neighbors would call me and say, "Well, we had a Grad rocket here, please record it." But in most of these cases, there were no casualties. It was simply destruction. And in this case, it's possible that criminal charges will be avoided; the victims will simply receive compensation.
But there are a lot of murders, and murders like the one in Bucha, deliberate ones, where people were tortured and killed. I live near Bucha and later documented it there. It's deliberate murder. Quite a few crimes involve sexual violence.
There are quite a few crimes related to ecocide, that is, deliberate damage to nature. For example: the explosion of the Kakhovka hydroelectric power stationThis is a horrific crime of ecocide, quite new to our region; it hasn't happened in Europe for a long time, but don't think it's the only such crime.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
Do you have an explanation for this cruelty that made the whole world shudder when it learned what the Russian army was capable of?
MICHAEL SAVVA
Yes, there is. I'm an expert in politically motivated criminal prosecutions, and these skills came in very handy because, in particular, I was examining the reasons for this brutality. In Bucha, I recorded something, well, perhaps unexpected. Local residents, while documenting it, told me: you see, we didn't see these people as enemies. They don't look much different. They also speak Russian. The Kyiv region is largely Russian-speaking. So there was no sense of danger. And yet they killed. And, of course, an explanation had to be found for why they killed. Z-ideology. The ideology of the "Russian world" during the war prepared these people for deliberate murder.
The dehumanization of Ukrainians, meaning they weren't considered human by the occupiers. Incidentally, the same thing happened to Wehrmacht and SS soldiers in Nazi Germany. First came the dehumanization, then came the murders and other crimes. While documenting in a small village Andreevka – this is near the town of Makarov, also in the Kyiv region – already in early April 2022, when the village was liberated, and only chimneys stood there; there were no houses on the main street. I recorded another amazing thing. Here's a manifestation of this very "Russian world." Russian soldiers took cars from local residents, painted a big V on them. In our region, they didn't have Zs, but Vs. And then they simply drove them around to smash them. Or they smashed them against a fence, or sank them in the lake. There, along the lakeshore, there's a sunken car every five meters. Just like that. Why? There's an explanation. They were demonstrating that they were in charge. They were demonstrating their capabilities, their superiority, and they had no imagination for anything other than this mindless violence.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
МCan war crimes have mitigating or aggravating circumstances?
ILYA SHABLINSKY
These are likely the same circumstances as those provided for in national criminal codes. If this defendant can prove that the crime was committed under physical or psychological pressure, if he can prove it. That is, if he can prove that committing the crime was his only option, because otherwise he faced death. Or active assistance in solving the crime. And there are so many aggravating factors, what's the point of talking about them? Mikhail just mentioned it—the murder of two or more people, rape combined with murder, and so on. A gigantic field.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
It's clear that we're all eagerly awaiting the trial of war criminals, and we're speculating in advance about how it might play out. But how realistic do you think it is to expect these people to stand trial and then actually serve prison time?
MICHAEL SAVVA
These expectations are absolutely realistic. It's a matter of time. I can't answer how long it will be before they end up behind bars, and neither can anyone else right now, but it will happen. Because there's enormous motivation among a huge number of people, both in Ukraine and elsewhere. We want to do this. We're willing to put aside many other problems, even forget about some altogether. But we will work tirelessly, consistently, and for many years to bring these scoundrels to justice.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Putin will die someday. He takes great care of his health, he's very meticulous in this regard. He has a carload of doctors following him. He's very afraid of assassination attempts. But the same fate awaits him as Stalin and other bloody dictators. For a huge number of people in Russia, the condition for being able to say everything they think about this war will be Putin's departure. The war will have to be tied to the evil, vile will of one man. Yes, he's gathered a group of fanatics around himself, but the initiative is undoubtedly his. For millions of Russians, this is also madness. Therefore, I agree with Mikhail that many people in Russia would like to wash away this disgrace. That's how it is for now.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
And would Putin, say, if he died before his trial began, be sentenced posthumously? Shoigu, Gerasimov, any war criminal?
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Russian Criminal Procedure Code in article 24 stipulates that criminal proceedings against deceased persons must be dismissed. However, there are already exceptions, that is, decisions made in Russia that contradict this rule. For example, in relation to Andrei Magnitsky, that is, precisely in those cases when the state needed to prove the guilt of the person trying to expose it. In regard to deceased tyrants, murderers, and executioners, political and moral judgment is important. In regard to their associates or that gang of vicious, bloodthirsty fanatics who popularize this war and revel in every murder. In the end, it was Stalin's own comrades who gave it to him. In the Philippines— MarcosThere are many such dictators who started wars. They were imprisoned in some places: in Argentinaof the GreeceIt's unclear how things will turn out for us. Putin, as you can see, is trying to create an army of people who will carry this anger within them for several years to come. Imagine 700 people returning from the front. Putin is counting on them to live by this war and protect him. And yet, experience shows that dictators don't get away with it.
MICHAEL SAVVA
Here, you understand what's important, in my opinion: Putin's regime is an anomaly. It's not normal. And we, the opponents of this regime, must remain normal. Therefore, prosecuting a dead person would also be somewhat of an anomaly. But, for example, an international tribunal could condemn the ideology of the "Russian world." That's possible. Not the person, but the ideas that this person brought forth.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
ПIt turns out that Putin has a chance to avoid conviction.and I international tribunal?
MICHAEL SAVVA
Yes, if he dies first. Just one chance.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
When it comes to the trial of war criminals, whether it's at The Hague or a specially created international tribunal, what's the priority? Punishment for the war criminal as such, retribution for the crime they committed, or should it also serve as a lesson for future generations, for the international community, to ensure such things never happen again? Although we know that, for example, the Nuremberg Trials, which took place for Nazi war criminals after the end of World War II, were also generally seen as a lesson of sorts. But it seems that not everyone has learned that lesson.
MICHAEL SAVVA
Such a trial is always about justice. Because there are many victims of war crimes, and the victims have relatives who want justice, who want the criminals punished. Punishing the criminals isn't much in itself. Much more is justice for the victims. And as you absolutely rightly said, these are lessons, these are conclusions for the future. Speaking of the Nazi war criminals' tribunal, I'd also like to mention it here. Tokyo Tribunal The Japanese war criminals—these tribunals were of enormous significance. In my opinion, Japan has been forever appeased. Germany has been forever appeased, again, in my opinion. Others—ancestors whose ancestors weren't in the dock—yes, they haven't drawn any conclusions. But new tribunals are being prepared for them.
ILYA SHABLINSKY
Ideology must be condemned, and at the Nuremberg Trials, some tenets of the Third Reich's ideology were condemned. And now the ideology of imperial Russian nationalism, which for a long time, even 10 years ago, seemed quite harmless, must be condemned. It turns out to be a bloody monster. This needs to be addressed. I'm afraid that Russia, having observed Germany's fate, hasn't drawn any conclusions for itself. Some Russians simply assumed that we were right about everything. That empire was bad, and ours is good, our imperialism justified. They saw in Germany's fate some kind of justification for their own imperialism. When the current dictator took over the country, the state helped them, convincing them—especially deliberately over the past 15 years—that Russian imperialism was some kind of higher form of existence for the Russian state. This is the most vile nationalism, that is, hatred and arrogance toward Russia's neighbors. At first, there was arrogance and contempt, and as the war progressed, hatred emerged. This imperialism must be ended once and for all. I don't know at what cost. The court must play its part.
FARIDA KURBANGALEEVA
It remains to be hoped that this time, a lesson will be learned from the international court, from the tribunal for war criminals involved in unleashing and waging a criminal war of conquest against Ukraine.
You can listen to this conversation on the podcast Sketch of the FutureThis is a joint podcast of the "NotMoscow Speaking" projects, Radio Sakharov и Country and World
