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It would seem that this is it, Russia no longer exists. It's a comprehensive crisis, essentially a civil war, involving all sorts of sectors of the population. There were no orders from above, the entire vertical power structure had collapsed, and there was nowhere to expect anything from. And accordingly, by this logic, Russia should have ceased to exist. But no. No way.

STUDIO: This, of course, is about the 17th century, about the Time of Troubles, or rather about its overcoming in the 1610s, says a historian from Nizhny Novgorod Pavel Chechenkov. This is the podcast "We'll Do It Ourselves" from the "NotMoscow Speaking" project. My name is Andrey Allahverdov. Hello.

"NotMoscow" is exactly one year old, and we're celebrating its first anniversary with the release of our first podcast. We've called it "We'll Be on Our Own From Now On," and here we'll be discussing the history of self-government in Russia. We'll be talking about the realities of historical development, as well as projects and plans that, for whatever reason, failed or weren't able to become reality. We'll be talking about the role local initiatives and local self-organization played in the country's history. What was useful, what could be used today, and what didn't work out. What was undeservedly forgotten and destroyed. We'll be speaking with historians and specialists living throughout Russia.

Our first episode is coming out on the eve of what has recently become a national holiday, National Unity Day. Should this holiday be celebrated on this day or not, and why November 4th replaced the 7th—a great deal has already been said and written about all this, and we won't repeat it. We'll discuss self-government and self-organization, and we'll speak with Pavel Chechenkov, a specialist in the history of—as we would say today—the Nizhny Novgorod region from the 14th to the 17th centuries. Hello, Pavel.

IF: Hello.

STUDIOWe won't go into detail about the events of the Time of Troubles; much has been written about them, and they're being talked about especially a lot now. We can Should we say that the history of overcoming the Time of Troubles is the history of local self-organization?

IF: Yes, we can talk about it not only locally, but also on a national scale. Because what do we see? By the end of 1610, a complete stalemate had developed in Russia. One could say that the country was simply on the brink of death, on the brink of collapse. Part of the country came under the control of Sweden, part of the country came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the united state of the Kingdom of Poland and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Moscow, the capital, also fell into the hands of the Polish garrison. Prince Vladislav was proposed as the new sovereign, and a significant part of the country swore allegiance to him, but the problem was that the prince did not go to Moscow. His father, Sigismund III, who had taken Smolensk by this time, hoped to unite under his rule both the Polish-Lithuanian possessions he had, and, apparently, the Russian ones. The country was essentially without a sovereign, without a tsar. Formally, the country continued to be governed from Moscow by the Boyar Duma, but it was under the control of the Polish garrison and was effectively forced to do what it was ordered to do under its dictation. And this was known in the country. On the ground, too, there was chaos. Local authorities are the voivodes. Some of the governors were appointed by Tsar Vasily Shuisky, others by False Dmitry II, others by this Duma controlled by the Poles, and some by Sigismund III. That is, there was complete confusion everywhere, both in the center and in the regions, and absolutely complete chaos. And in these conditions of complete collapse, when what we now call the vertical power structure had disintegrated and dissolved, representatives of the nobility demonstrated a lack of what we would now call patriotism, and demonstrated a struggle for their own privileges, for their own positions. Because historically, all the powers of this nobility, its authority, its status – everything came from the sovereign. They were inseparably connected, so to speak, by an umbilical cord. And when the sovereign was gone, when it was unclear who the sovereign was, they all searched: where, where, where is the sovereign, whom should we serve? So they served, some – False Dmitry II, others – Vasily Shuisky. Others ran back and forth, trying to guess who would win. And when the third center of power, Sigismund III, appeared, some of the boyars went to him near Smolensk and actually began to serve him. Most people simply didn’t think about what was happening to the country, but were looking for prospects for themselves, their family, and their dynasty. And in these conditions, local people are starting to take matters into their own hands, something they are not used to. People are accustomed to the fact that governors are sent from Moscow to every district town, the governors receive orders from there, and everything goes on like that. But here there was no hope in Moscow; the governors felt no support in the center or in the regions either, so they were forced, willy-nilly, to enter into some kind of dialogue with local society. And so city councils appear, which, well, not exactly take power into their own hands, that’s putting it strongly, but they take control over what’s happening specifically in their city, in their district. Whether one likes it or not, such popular self-organization begins.

STUDIOYou say "city councils began to be created," but how did they begin to be created? Whose initiative was it? The process itself is very interesting.

IF: Of course it's interesting! We're interested in it too. But the thing is, unfortunately, we don't have any documents documenting all of this. No minutes, no records of their meetings, and it's unlikely they were even held. We only see some results, when they already exist. The country was heading toward schism, and then it broke out with all its might. A full-blown civil war broke out across the country. Nizhny Novgorod supported Tsar Vasily Shuisky, while the surrounding districts supported False Dmitry II. Nizhny Novgorod was effectively blockaded, and now we see that by the end of 1608, this city council began to function. How do we know about this?

Documents!

From the Letter of the Nizhny Novgorod Residents to the Perm Residents, January 26, 1609

To our lords in Great Perm: the archimandrite and hegumen, and the archpriest and the clerks and the priest and the deacon and the guest and the merchant tradesmen and all the district people of Nizhny Novgorod, the authorities and governors Prince Alexander Repnin, Ondrey Alyabyev, the deacon Vasily Semenov, and the princes, and the nobles and the boyar children and the foreigners Lithuanians and Germans and all the service people and the guests and the zemstvo elders and the kissers and all the tradesmen bow down... 

Documents from Nizhny Novgorod are traditional in form, but previously they came from вgovernors and diaka. Voivodea - head of the local government, and clerk this is his assistant for management and affairsоproduction. And now, From the end of 1608, the document lists a wider circle of participants, on whose behalf Nizhny Novgorod sends these charters to its neighbors. ЭThat is, essentially, all categories of the urban population. And it turns out that documents are sent from all of them to the outside world. Пa city council appears, which takes on these functions. Not that even day-to-day management, but rather political functions in interaction with other similar regions. РPreviously, all contacts went through Moscow, but now no, and they begin to seek contacts with each other in order to find like-minded people, to develop some kind of position, to understand who is where, who is for whom, and that’s how it all comes about.

And to decide they needed, essentially speaking, questions saving their lives and their property. As for the Nizhnyth from BAlakhna county, from Balakhna, just an ultimatum came: Kiss the cross to Tsar Dmitry Ivanovich, or we will begin military action against you. And they were begun.. The Nizhny Novgorod Kremlin was under siege, and they needed to somehow organize everything.. FROMthere was a falsity more in the fact that a significant part of the military forces of Nizhny Novgorod Back in 1606, they departed for the Lower Volga region. Vasily Shuisky gave orders to restore order in Astrakhan, and they departed there. Nizhny Novgorod was almost defenseless. Эthat also stimulated к thatmuthat we all need to unite, otherwise nothing good will happen: If these thugs break into the city, then no one will be safe. So they united, discussed, toWhat should they do, how should they save themselves? They could only rely on themselves. Вthis is what determined their, so to speak, unanimity, otherwise They wouldn't have been able to withstand this onslaught.

From the 17th-century chronicle "The New Chronicler" (translated by Sergei Shokarev)

In Nizhny, the treasury was becoming scarce. He began writing to the cities, to the coastal and all the lower towns, asking for help in the cleansing of the Muscovite state. The cities, hearing that an assembly was being held in Nizhny, were delighted and sent him for advice, sending him much treasury, and even bringing him much treasury from the cities. When the soldiers in the cities heard that all free men were gathering in Nizhny, they came from all the towns. The first to arrive were the Kolomnichi, then the Ryazan people, then many from the Ukrainian towns—Cossacks and Streltsy, who had resided in Moscow under Tsar Vasily. They provided them with pay. God looked upon the army and bestowed upon them great counsel and love, so that there would be no enmity between them.

STUDIOAnd what role did Kuzma Minin actually play there? Usually, when people talk about the militia, they talk less about the city council and more about how it was organized by the zemstvo elder Minin, about his appeal…

IF: There's a painting by Makovsky, Minin's appeal to the people. It takes up an entire room in the Nizhny Novgorod Art Museum; it's enormous. It features Minin addressing the people of Nizhny Novgorod at the marketplace. But modern researchers are increasingly inclined to believe that there was no such appeal. That is, it's unlikely that Minin was shouting and calling for help at the marketplace. It was a routine matter, the idea itself matured gradually, and the first idea, which came from the zemstvo elder Kuzma Minin, was to create self-defense units. By 1611, the situation had become much worse. Cossack bands and detachments of, as we say, Polish-Lithuanian invaders roamed the country. And Minin, apparently, came up with this initial idea of ​​creating units that would defend the city. What is a zemstvo elder? He is the head of self-government, exclusively for the townspeople. I've often been asked: what can this be compared to in our modern system? And people immediately think: if he's the head of self-government, then he's the mayor. Of course not, because it was a class society. And Minin represented only the merchant and artisan tradespeople, the common people. So they elected him. This position didn't emerge during the Time of Troubles; it existed before. Ivan the Terrible had already carried out the zemstvo reform, and even before that, there were elements of this kind of popular self-government. He was responsible for managing economic issues, just like at an institute where every student group has a headman; he facilitates communication between the group and the dean's office. It was the same here: the headman facilitated communication between the common people and the official authorities. And he, invested with such authority, came up with this idea. Everyone supported it; everyone liked it.

What was it idea? Нhire professional military personnel, and we tradespeople We'll raise money for this. And then the question arose.: who to hire? And then a very curious situation arose. К at this time King Sigismundund III with his troops took Smolensk and, in fact, occupied the whole сMolen land. Сprayers servesлye people, nobles and boyar children retreated. From they could not in any way control their possessionsth incomeа receive. At this time, the remnants of the first zemstvo militia, which had fallen apart, and their leader, Prince Trubetskoy, were stationed near Moscow. который considered himself the head of state, endowed them with estates in the neighboring with Niжеcityиm Arzamascom countyе. ОNot everyone went there, but the local population refused their to acknowledge. ABOUTthey didn't say anything: who is that Prince Trubetskoy? ABOUTn us who? НNo, we don't agree with ours аto give you the Rzamas lands. A conflict arose, were collisions. ОThey found out about this in Nizhny Novgorod, and another idea was born: people, good in terms of military organization and their military skills, They disappear, they don't know what to do, let's goе We'll call them. And it will have an effect on everyone.axis beautifulм outputom. AndThey weren't called just like that, not out of patriotic feelings, they were offered a salary, and they gladly agreed.

From the Tale of the Victories of the Muscovite State, a 17th-century document
For this Cosmas had long heard of the bravery of Smolensk and the courage of the nobles of the city of Smolensk […] He summoned all the people of Nizhny Novgorod and began to speak to them with his wise words, saying: “O brothers and friends, all peoples of Nizhny Novgorod! What shall we do now, seeing the Muscovite state in great ruin? […] I give you this advice, my brothers, if you will listen to my words: let us summon to Nizhny Novgorod brave and courageous warriors of the Muscovite state, trusted nobles of the city of Smolensk, for now they are near our city, in the Arzamas region. […] That same good-natured man, Kozma Minin, first of all divided his property into three parts, and taking two of his property, with great joy brought it to the military men’s treasury meeting, leaving one part of his property for himself to use. Then all the citizens did the same […]. And having collected a large amount of treasury, that prudent Kozma divided the nobles of the city of Smolensk into three parts, according to their noble honor […] and, instead of the sovereign’s salary, gave them full dues, according to their noble honor. 

В the beginning of winter, в conце 1611 years old, in Nizhny Novgorod появляется ПThe militia affairs department, which is actually responsible for organizing this militia. It's still unclear what its purpose is—whether it's for the defense of Nizhny Novgorod or for some broader plan. ЕIt is headed by Prince Dmitry Pozharsky as the first commanderа, the second voivodeа Ivan Birkin and how people, responsible for management, dthto Vasily Yudin Bashmakov. A Kuzmы Minin is not there because Kuzma Minin still serves as the zemstvo elder.ы. КThat's how it happens initiative is punishable. TOwhen he came up with the idea of ​​creating military units, he was entrusted with: you came up with it hire service people and provide them with everything they need here Let's get to it. He was chosen to collect, according to various sources, either «the third penny», whether «fifth», that is, respectively, either a thirdю, or fiveth part of the property, This, actually, lots of. ОI held this meeting, invited people, and then I started dealing with all these issues. Пorder of militia affairs. And Minin continued to remain zeMoscow headman and engage in with their city affairs. Эthat было unity of all city residents.

STUDIO: So, in this way, the task of defending the city itself was solved through joint efforts, and the militia had no intention of going to save the country?

PC: Apparently, initially, there was no intention of saving the entire country. The idea was to save their own city and themselves; the city council was responsible only for Nizhny Novgorod itself. It was only at the end of winter, in February 1612, that the idea finally took hold that it was necessary not only to defend Nizhny but also to address more serious matters. They began sending out letters from Nizhny Novgorod, declaring that they were creating this militia, and that they were welcome to join us.

From the District Charter of Prince Dmitry Mikhailovich Pozharsky, June 1612

... In Nizhny Novgorod, guests and townspeople and the elected man Kosma Minin, zealous for the benefit, not sparing his property, taught to reward military men with monetary salaries, and sent for me, Prince Dmitry from Nizhny, many times, so that I could go to Nizhny for the zemstvo council; and I, at their request, came to them in Nizhny, and boyars, and voivodes, and stolniks, and stewards and great nobles, and nobles and deti boyars, Vyazma, Dorogobuzh and Smolensk residents and other various cities began to come to me in Nizhny; and I, asking God for mercy, taught them all, and the elected man Kosma Minin and the townspeople, to advise us to stand with one mind for the Muscovite state against the enemies and destroyers of the Christian faith, the Polish and Lithuanian people [...] and having advised, we gave our souls to God for this, and gave generous monetary salaries to all the military people... And you, gentlemen, should know about this, and send to us, for a general zemstvo council, two or three people from all ranks, and against this letter write to us your advice under your own hands, how we should stand against our common enemies, the Polish and Lithuanian people, and how we should be stateless in the present evil times, and choose for ourselves a sovereign for the whole land, whom the merciful God, in his righteous love for mankind, will give...

И they received positive reactions from neighboring cities, from the Lower Volga, from the Upper Volga, in the Kazan, Yaroslavlя, Kostromaы. ОThey're starting to send their representatives, their people, to bolster this militia. And now something more serious is starting to take shape, because the city council isn't going anywhere; it's staying in Nizhny Novgorod. The Militia Affairs Department was dealing with purely organizational issues. But a body was needed that would somehow develop a political platform and unite not just Nizhny Novgorod residents, but everyone who was starting to join this cause. And this body that's starting to form is called "Advice allя lands». Сthis is the most important thingcatchthere is no combination yet because it The final formation of the council will take place in Yaroslavl. This operation will begin its campaign in late February – early March.militia from Nizhny Novgorod to Yaroslavl. And there the final formation and consolidation of the militia will take place.я, and the Council allя lands. Representatives from more and more counties that are getting involved in this matter will be involved there—that is, roughly speaking, delegates from similar city councils.From different strata of the population. Eboth common people, tradesmen, and the nobility, as well as some representatives of the aristocracy and nobility who found themselves outside the borders of Moscow for various reasons they are invited, they also arrive in Yaroslavl and also join the Council вsowing зeat. Эthat was a kind of analogue of the Zemsky Sobor, but with a smaller representation upper classes. В Zemsks the cathedral was entirely included бOyar Duma, the sacred council, that is, the highest clergyThey are in the Council, Of course, I couldn't enterи, because most of them were sitting in Moscow. But those who could, they entered.

STUDIOYou wrote that the Council, which was then located in Yaroslavl, became a real provisional government, which, in fact, governed the country at that moment.

IF: Yes. Again, we see documents that came from them. That is, we see their actions. They appointed governors, dismissed those who did not support them, and sent their own governors. They sent charters on various economic matters, that is, they essentially responded to all the needs that arose. People began to turn to them. They minted their own coins. Foreign policy negotiations were conducted in their name, in particular with Novgorod. Novgorod was under Swedish control at the time, and the Swedes pushed the Novgorodians to officially declare a Novgorod state. And it was important to resolve this foreign policy issue so that, while the militia was marching on Moscow, they wouldn't be stabbed in the back by Novgorod and the Swedes. And they were able, not so much to secure assistance, but at least to neutralize them. These negotiations were sanctioned by the Council of the Whole Land. That is, it effectively took on matters of state governance. And it functioned until the election of Mikhail Romanov by the Zemsky Sobor in 1613. When the militia from Yaroslavl approached Moscow, the remnants of the first militia were also stationed there, and initially, relations with them were cool. During a battle there with the Poles, with Hetman Chodkiewicz, Trubetskoy did not support them. But then the two militias finally merged, and while before the unification, Prince Pozharsky and Kuzma Minin, the chosen man of all Rus', were listed first, after the unification, Prince Trubetskoy was listed first, because Trubetskoy ranked higher than Pozharsky in the local council. With the election of Mikhail Romanov, the Council's powers ended; they, so to speak, surrendered their duties.

STUDIO: If the Council was quite effective and successful in completely governing the country, why was it necessary to elect a Tsar again?

IF: We must understand that this was a medieval society, and the situation was extraordinary for everyone. And it had to be overcome somehow. But in the minds of people of that time, the country was governed not by the people, but by a divinely chosen monarch—in the Russian version, a tsar. The Time of Troubles, after all, began with the extinction of the Moscow Rurik dynasty. And it was a catastrophe, perceived as divine punishment for sin, and it was unclear what to do. And so, throughout the Time of Troubles, we see a search for some new option, a search for a new tsar. First, Boris Godunov, then Vasily Shuisky, somehow didn't catch on because they weren't of monarchical origin. Then there was the idea of ​​the Polish prince Vladislav, but that didn't work out either. And why did the Romanovs stay in power later? The situation was difficult, but nothing of the sort happened. Because under Mikhail Romanov, the Zemsky Sobor (the Council of the Whole Land) was in session almost constantly, meaning the tsar sought to secure the people's opinion. Only later, gradually, as the Romanovs' position on the throne strengthened, did the Zemsky Sobors meet less and less frequently, and then, under Alexei Mikhailovich, they ceased to meet altogether. Thus, popular representation, that is, the Council of the Whole Land, ceased to exist as a government, but the general desire to be conditioned, so to speak, by popular opinion continued under the first Romanov.

STUDIOIs there anything we can learn from the experiences of that time?

IF: We constantly look to the past for answers to our present-day questions. But the problem is that the past is gone and never repeats itself. No situation repeats itself, least of all the situation of the 17th century—a completely different society, structured on different principles, a class-based society. Therefore, direct borrowing is hardly possible here. But the idea that the fate of the country is in the hands of the people, in the hands of society, and if society senses that things have reached such a state that everyone understands that if we don't take the initiative, there will be no future history as a country, as a united society—that's something, that's a historical lesson, so to speak. And Russia managed to survive that crisis and survive.

We traditionally believe that the most important thing in our history is the vertical power structure, and that the Russian people are simply awaiting orders from above, and that without these orders, nothing can be done. But we see that when the situation arose, there were no orders from above, and the entire vertical power structure collapsed, leaving nothing to be expected from. And accordingly, by this logic, Russia should have ceased to exist. But no, it didn't. In this crisis, the people demonstrated the ability to self-organize, to unite, to find solutions. After all, the Time of Troubles was a comprehensive crisis and, essentially, a civil war, in which various segments of the population participated. But when the situation reached a complete impasse, the search for some kind of dialogue began, and they began to find it, and they began to self-organize, creating unprecedented self-government bodies that none of them knew about. That is, of course, there were self-governments at the level of the city posad, at the village level, and so on. But all this is for solving purely mundane economic issues. The point is that it's also possible to create some kind of local government bodies that would take all matters of life into their own hands. Moreover, this hasn't happened at the national level, but life forced it, and it turns out the Russian people are quite capable of it in a critical situation.

And basically, it turns out they achieved what they wanted. They wanted the restoration of statehood and order, and they got it. They wanted further economic development, and for trade and crafts to flourish, and everything worked out in that regard. So, they succeeded, they succeeded.

STUDIOI'd like to thank historian Pavel Chechenkov, a specialist in the history of Nizhny Novgorod from the 14th to 17th centuries. This was the podcast "We'll Do It Ourselves." My name is Andrey Allakhverdov. See you later.